If you wish to maintain a correct look for the era your truck was manufactured, see if you are able to locate a set of 3-pointers from a Volvo from the same year.
FoMoCo afford 3-pointers from '58-'61 after Volvo intro'd them based on the Volvo design, but they were not a big seller & were dropped.

 

I worked in accident investigation for many years and I can tell you that a lap belt alone is very effective in most collisions. A lap belt will keep you from being partially ejected and crushed if your truck rolls. It will keep you from sliding forward in your seat and slamming your knees into the dash; this can result in a compound fracture of the femur which severs the femoral artery, frequently leading to death by massive bleeding. A lap belt can keep you from sliding across the vehicle and receiving a fatal head injury in a far-side T-bone collision. It can keep you from falling out of your seat and breaking your neck or crushing your skull in a roll-over. A lap belt will keep you in your seat so that you can continue to steer and brake after some sort of loss of control. The list goes on.

A three-point belt is really only better than a lap belt in front-on collisions. Most of the Federally-mandated crash testing, especially in the early days, focused on head-on barrier impacts. If you happen to get involved in one of these, the three-point belt will usually keep you from bending forwards and striking the windshield or dash and may keep you from loosing teeth on the steering wheel. But it's fairly common to twist out of the shoulder strap during a collision that involves rotation of the vehicle and be, at best, no better off that if you had been wearing just a lap belt.

Three-point belts can be worse than a non-retractable lap belt in many of the collisions that I mentioned in the first paragraph. The belt is elastic and stretches in proportion to the applied force and the length of the belt. The longer the belt, the more it will stretch under a given load (typical loads are six to ten times the passenger’s weight). Plus all of the slack must be taken up in the system before the belt can be effective. This includes the slack in the take-up reel. In some cases this may amount to many inches of additional stretch by the time belt is pulled tight around the reel. Mercedes has a system with a motor that tensions the belt when the collision sensors detect a crash. I saw one after a crash that was so tight I could strum it like a guitar string!

If I had my choice between a non-retractable lap belt and a retractable 3-point belt, I think I would go with the lap belt. I just feel more secure when I'm tightly strapped in vs. held loosely by a 3-point belt. If you really want to upgrade your seat belts, get a four or five point racing belt.

Retractable lap belts where the belt is fully pulled out of the reel are fine. What I would avoid is a reel that has several loops of belt wrapped around it when it is in use. These always have a latch that must be operating at the time of collision for the belt to work and they suffer from the extra slack discussed in regards to the three-point belts, above.

Slightly changing the subject, another area of safety equipment that is often overlooked is head/neck support. Our old trucks have nothing to support the head in a rear impact. The typical hyper-extension/flexion (whiplash) injury can be very serious. I recall seeing a clear headrest that could be glued (I guess) to the rear window; it didn't look like it would survive very well in our intense sunlight. Has anyone seen any other head rests for pickups with bench seats?

Cal

 

I'd like to debate a couple points: First a 3 point shoulder belt is much better than a lap belt alone IMHO. A lap belt will not stop you from being speared by the (typically) non collapsable steering column found in most of our trucks. This was a significant cause of serious/fatal injuries prior to colapsable columns being mandated in 1967 (I believe). Lap belts alone will not keep your passengers from suffering serious/fatal head injuries from doing a face plant into the steel dashboard. Most people do not pull their lap belt tight enough to keep them in place and out of harms way, and the belt itself can/will cause major internal injuries.
Metal to fabric buckles should NEVER EVER be used! They will lock up solid in a crash preventing you from being able to get out of the vehicle except by cutting the belt.
Racing harnesses should NEVER EVER be used for highway driving!!!! First they are not certified for highway use and therefore not legal to use. Second they require very specific mounting geometry to function in a crash. We lost Dale Earhart due in a large part to an slightly improperly installed racing harness. Without a properly installed and worn crotch strap a shoulder harness will pull the buckle up under the rib cage in a crash crushing the intestines and forcing the diaphram up against the heart, killing you.
Third a properly installed and worn racing harness will hold you tightly against the seat preventing you from doing the many driving tasks requiring free movement of the torso. Our Miata and Celica were equipped with 5 point harnesses for racing, but we NEVER wore them for street driving.
Finally NEVER EVER use recycled seatbelt assemblies from the junkyard! Seatbelts are designed to only function properly in ONE accident and should be replaced immediately after that one use. They also need to be cared for properly to keep the fabric from deteriorating including exposure to chemicals such as solvents and battery acid and extended weather exposure. You have no idea of the history of belts in a junkyard, they may look fine but have been severely weakened. Late model belts have built in stretch as mentioned to be used only in conjunction with air bags.
What is your life or the life of your loved ones worth??? How would you feel if your wife/child/parent or other loved one ended up a vegetable from a severe head injury because you saved a few bucks (or worse yet because they "looked better") putting in only lap belts??? Lap belts alone are definitely better than no belts, but not nearly as good as 3 point harnesses with autolock retractors.
I also agree that head whiplash restrictors (they are not for "resting" your head) are also a neccessary safety item. Center portion of a bench seat with only a lapbelt and no head support should only be used in emergencies or for keeping a bag of groceries from sliding around.
One more often overlooked safety item is seat mounting. A heavy seat has a lot of momentum in a crash, and if not adequately secured to the vehicle can quite literally cut you in 1/2 with the seatbelt. Even factory mounting can be weakened by rust and corrosion.

 

This sounds great. I am definetly looking into a three point retro-fit. Thanks for the info!

 

I am absolutely with you on this one. Looks like a lot of work in my future to get the three point harness to work in my 51. Thanks for the opinion, Chuck, it drives home a lot of good points.
Doug

 

Hi AX,

I’ll be happy to respond to your points. But, please, let’s not get into a flame war. Life is too short. You have a racer’s perspective, I have an accident investigators perspective. I’m sure we can both learn a lot. I’ll take your points one at a time and respond:

First a 3 point shoulder belt is much better than a lap belt alone IMHO.

I agree that a 3-point belt can be better in frontal collisions. For lateral (T-bone) or roll-over collisions, they don’t give you any additional protection. As I said before, they may not hold you as tightly as a properly adjusted lap belt. I am familiar with cases where there has been enough slack in the lap belt that the occupant has been able to strike the roof during a roll over.

A lap belt will not stop you from being speared by the (typically) non collapsable steering column found in most of our trucks. …

This was a real problem in vehicles where the steering column extended to or beyond the front axle, such as the old International Scout. A frontal collision could literally drive the steering column back into the driver. (My neighbor died in just such a crash when I was growing up.) Our old Fords have the steering sector box mounted much farther aft on the frame, so it’s not such a problem as it was in the Scout. If you do happen to get in a collision that can drive the steering column in your old Ford back, a 3-point belt will not save you.

Lap belts alone will not keep your passengers from suffering serious/fatal head injuries from doing a face plant into the steel dashboard.

I agree. 3-point belts will not always keep you from hitting the dash either. It’s fairly common for a passenger to twist out of the shoulder belt and strike the dash. If I knew I was going to be driving straight into a barrier at 40mph, I would want a 3-point belt; that’s what they are designed for. Any other collision, with significant lateral or rotational forces, and they may not be as effective.

Most people do not pull their lap belt tight enough to keep them in place and out of harms way, and the belt itself can/will cause major internal injuries.

I agree. But this is true of 3-point belts as well. And I have ridden in many vehicles where I could not get the belt as tight as I would have liked; can’t say I’ve ever had that problem with a non-retractable lap belt. The fact that people don’t always use the restraints properly is really a separate issue.

Metal to fabric buckles should NEVER EVER be used! They will lock up solid in a crash preventing you from being able to get out of the vehicle except by cutting the belt.

I’m not really sure what you’re referring to here. We had some belts like that in my Dad’s ’57 F-100; do they sell new belts like that anymore? I agree that a metal to metal latch is much better.

Racing harnesses should NEVER EVER be used for highway driving!!!! First they are not certified for highway use and therefore not legal to use.

“Certified” for highway use means that the company has taken the time to jump through all of the Federal hoops to be able to say that their product meets Federal Standards. Unless a company has a need to go through this, they probably won’t. Then there is the liability issue of what happens if someone is injured or killed while wearing one of their seatbelts? They can bypass a lot of that if they only market stuff for off-road use. The regulation that covers seat belt assemblies is Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 209 (FMVSS 209). Here’s a link:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...cfr571.209.pdf

One of the things that caught my eye was:
There’s all sort of regulations in there relating to the certification of the machines that do the testing, etc. I can only imagine what it must cost to have a seat belt tested per FMVSS 209. Oh, and Section 4.4.2 allows the belt to stretch 7 inches under the test load!

Here’s a summary of state laws relating to seatbelts:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/inju...ectionLaws.pdf
I haven’t read that whole thing, but just scanning through, I don’t see that seatbelts have to meet a particular Federal standard. (This is not the case for motorcycle helmets and child restraint seat, which usually do have to meet Federal standards.) Indiana has a law against installing an air bag system that does not meet Federal standards. California prohibits “a person from transporting a person in a farm labor vehicle that does not comply with Federal safety belt requirements (49 CFR 571.207).” BTW, that Federal reg deals with the entire seat system, not just the belts, so you California guys probably shouldn’t put any off road seats or belts in your “farm labor vehicle”. But I don’t see anything about seatbelts laws anywhere else requiring the belt meet Federal or other standards. That doesn’t mean it’s not there; I could easily have missed it. Also, look at the Uniform Vehicle Code, starting on page 177; that's what the feds think the state law should be. Again, nothing about belt standards.

There may be a Federal law or regulation somewhere that makes it illegal to install racing or off-road belts in a vehicle that was never required to have seat belts of any kind. Shucks, they have a regulation about how many gallons of water my toilet can hold, why not. But I’m sure it’s not against the law in Arizona. California? Who knows!

Second they require very specific mounting geometry to function in a crash. ….

I certainly agree. Seatbelts must be properly installed to function correctly. This applies to 3-point belts as well. When you graft a 3-point belt onto a classic Ford truck you are no better off that if you had installed a 5-point racing harness. When a car manufacturer designs a 3-point belt installation, it gets tested. I doubt any of us are going to crash test our classic truck to make sure we put the 3-point belt in correctly. If you know of anyone who has done a series of crash tests of after market 3-point belts in older pickups, please let us know. And I’m not saying that to be argumentative.

Without a properly installed and worn crotch strap a shoulder harness will pull the buckle up under the rib cage in a crash crushing the intestines and forcing the diaphram up against the heart, killing you.

I agree. Wearing a 5-point belt without the crotch strap is a very bad idea. They are not designed to work without the crotch strap. I probably should not have said “4-point racing belt”; those probably don’t exist. I did not mean a 5-point belt without the crotch strap. What I meant was a lap and dual shoulder belt like this: Wesco 50521

Third a properly installed and worn racing harness will hold you tightly against the seat preventing you from doing the many driving tasks requiring free movement of the torso.

I’m not sure what driving tasks you are talking about. Yup, it’s gonna tough to change the CD or do anything but DRIVE. This is a comfort vs. safety trade-off. If being comfortable is more important, then use a 3-point belt. My point was, I you are really concerned about having the safest seat belt, there are better choices than a 3-point belt.

Our Miata and Celica were equipped with 5 point harnesses for racing, but we NEVER wore them for street driving.

a) Please tell me that you have a 3-point belt for street driving. b) I’m fascinated by the second part. Is this because you think it’s illegal to use them off the track or is it a comfort issue? As a champion driver, don’t you feel well, weird when you’re not strapped down as tight as you can be?

Finally NEVER EVER use recycled seatbelt assemblies from the junkyard! Seatbelts are designed to only function properly in ONE accident and should be replaced immediately after that one use. …

I agree.

What is your life or the life of your loved ones worth??? How would you feel if your wife/child/parent or other loved one ended up a vegetable from a severe head injury because you saved a few bucks (or worse yet because they "looked better") putting in only lap belts???

This is not a question of cost or looks. I really do not think that a retractable 3-point belt is all that great; I’ve seen enough accidents to convince me of that. Plus, it’s actually easier to retrofit the 4-point off-road belt that I mentioned above than it is to figure out how to install a 3-point belt with retractor in a vehicle that was never designed to include one. All the 4-point belt takes is three substantial connections to the cab floor.

Lap belts alone are definitely better than no belts, but not nearly as good as 3 point harnesses with autolock retractors.

As I said before, in some collisions, a 3-point belt is better. But there is a reason you don’t use them in race cars: they don’t protect you as well as a 5-point belt. If you roll over or get hit in the rear or the side, the 3-point belt is no better that a lap belt; it just depends on the dynamics of the collision. Don’t think for a moment that a 3-point belt will protect you in all situations.

Cal

 

Color me edumacated. I now know way more about seat belts than I ever thought I wanted to know.

Thanks, guys.

 

I'm thinking of trying a seat from a late model Chevy truck in my 56.
The seats in my 03 Chevy truck are very comfortable and the shoulder belts are built into the seats.

 

Nice to read what a Professional Accident Investigator has to state about Seatbelts & put to rest certain Myths surrounding them.
Were you N.T.S.B. or did you work for a Private Co.?
I had an N.T.S.B. course @ University & it was a Real Eye Opener!

 

It was a combination of military, law enforcement and private consulting over 25 years.

Cal

 

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Continued in next post!

 

Cont. from previous post

 

AX,

I think I may not have made my position clear. I absolutely do not suggest, for a moment, that a 3-point belt should not be worn. Boys and girls, always, Always, ALWAYS wear your seat belt! I go into this debate by responding to doug51f1’s concern that his lap only belt “probably won't do anything in a crash, but they sure make my wife happier about riding in my truck.” My basic points are these:
1. A lap belt is always better than no belt and will protect you in a lot of collisions. *
2. A 3-point belt is not the clear choice for an old truck, in my mind.
3. Yes, a 3-point belt will PROBABLY give you better protection in a frontal collision than a lap belt.
4. Just to reiterate, if a car has a 3-point belt in it, WEAR IT.

* Once in a great while some guy who was not wearing a seatbelt get ejected from a car, suffers no injury, and the car goes on to catch fire and burn or something. In these VERY rare case, not wearing a seatbelt saved the guys life. But you are far more likely to win the Power Ball lottery than be one of the lucky few who actually are better off not wearing a seatbelt.

I’m sure we can agree that the very worst thing that can come out of this debate is for someone to not wear a seatbelt because he/she did not think that particular design would help protect them. I certainly do not want Doug to not wear a lap belt because he does not think it will do any good.

Now, my concerns with the 3-point belt mostly have to do with the retractor and with the locking mechanism. There are some very good ones out there like the Mercedes system with the little gas operated motor that lightens the belt when the airbags go off. That sort of thing is great as long as they work when the time comes. But I like my safety equipment to be real simple, with as few moving parts and things to fail as possible. I had a car with a retractor that kept locking up when it wasn’t supposed to; this didn’t give me a warm fuzzy feeling that it would lock correctly when I actually needed it. I’ve had a car where the take up spring failed and the belt would not retract; the dealer wanted an outrageous amount for an entire new seat belt assembly, I couldn’t buy just the spring. I’ve just seen too many failures of the damn things to deliberately put one in a vehicle.

OK, lets see what I’ve failed to cover from you last post:

… With your credentials I must say I find your position a rather curious one tho, and therefore wish to debate it further. …

I hope I cleared up any misunderstandings about whether or not a 3-point belt should be worn if available. Yes it should. That should leave just a debate about just how bad are lap belts and whether or not the 3-point belt is the ultimate in seatbelt design and cannot be improved upon.


AX: First a 3 point shoulder belt is much better than a lap belt alone IMHO.
Cal: I agree that a 3-point belt can be better in frontal collisions. For lateral (T-bone) or roll-over collisions, they don’t give you any additional protection.
I agree, but conversely they do not give any LESS protection or present additional hazards either. …

Here I disagree. 3-point belts are longer and will stretch more. As I pointed out earlier, a belt can stretch 7 inches under test loading and still pass! That’s 7 inches in addition to whatever slack may already be in the system from the passenger leaning forward or whatever prior to collision. I know of a case where the driver of a small truck, wearing a 3-point belt, was able to leave a chunk of scalp on the top of the windshield clear over in the corner on the passenger’s side. The forces in a roll-over collision can be incredible and can act in any direction imaginable. The latch mechanism for the seat belt can easily unlatch during the roll and let the belt pay out. That’s not a problem with my non-retractable lap belt.

… 2 vehicle accidents, at least one vehicle is taking a frontal impact …, that's why the government crash test are done the way they are. …
The whole evolution of crash testing is pretty complicated, but that’s close enough for purposes of this discussion.

… A straight on T-bone is never a single car accident, to use the T-bone example as justification for not using shoulder straps disregards the additional protection afforded to the striking car's occupants…

I already addressed this, but I want to make sure there is no room for doubt. I do not think that shoulder belts should not be worn. I do not advocate taking 3-point belts out of cars and replacing them with lap only belts. I do not think we should roll back safety standards to the 1960s and stop putting 3-point belts into new cars.

… as well as causing no direct harm to the struck vehicle's occupants, and the better protection they afford in all the other accident types.
Cal: As I said before, they may not hold you as tightly as a properly adjusted lap belt.
That is why belts are mandated to have auto retractors, they adjust the tension for you. …
I’m not sure this is correct and particularly question that the purpose of the retractor is to maintain proper belt tension. I scanned FMVSS 208 and 209 again and I don’t see that, but I could have missed it, together there is over 100 pages of regulation. For each period of time, and there are may, manufactures seem to have several options. One of the options in most periods was a completely automatic crash protection system with no requirements for belts at all. Next time you are having trouble sleeping, read FVMSS 208.

… I personally doubt many lap belt only/non self retracting belts would be properly adjusted as tight as necessary by the user to provide even near equal protection.

I disagree. I think that most people will tighten a lap belt at least at tightly as the retractor does. Just look at people on an airplane. Fasten the buckle, pull on the strap to tighten; most adults have heard that speech dozens of time. My person observation only, but I am never happy with the amount of tension that a retractor provides. I always feel like I’m sloshing around in the seat and there is not a thing I can do about it.

Cal: I am familiar with cases where there has been enough slack in the lap belt that the occupant has been able to strike the roof during a roll over.
My case in point!
[blink] What I meant to say was in the lap belt portion of the 3-point belt. But yes, if the lap-only belt is not properly tightened it has the same problems as the 3-point belt. My point was that most of the time the 3-point belt can’t be made sufficiently tight, IMHO.

AX: Lap belts alone will not keep your passengers from suffering serious/fatal head injuries from doing a face plant into the steel dashboard.
Cal: I agree. 3-point belts will not always keep you from hitting the dash either. It’s fairly common for a passenger to twist out of the shoulder belt and strike the dash. If I knew I was going to be driving straight into a barrier at 40mph, I would want a 3-point belt; that’s what they are designed for. Any other collision, with significant lateral or rotational forces, and they may not be as effective .
As effective as what? A lapbelt alone?...
Yes. Ideally, the 3-point belt should would as well or better. But if it is loose or slack for the reasons already discussed, if will not work as well as a TIGHT lap belt.

…Nothing?...Absolutely not. A 3-point belt is better that nothing in all but the most freakish circumstances.

… So far the argument has been "in rare circumstances a 3 point harness MAY not be be as effective a protections as ???" (so it's ok not to use them).
Again, No.

Cal: “Certified” for highway use means that the company has taken the time to jump through all of the Federal hoops to be able to say that their product meets Federal Standards….

I must go and look to see what it says exactly, but the OEM seatbelts in my cars have a label sewn to them that I believe is their DOT certification. …
Mine all have something to the effect that meet FMVSS regs. AFIK, the Feds don’t actually go out and witness the tests and issue certs. It used to be true, and probably still is, that the Feds don’t even get copies of the data, just a letter from the company certifying that it was done.

All the racing harness manufacturers specifically state their harnesses are NOT DOT approved for highway use (except one model made by Schroth that is not a true racing harness approved for competition). The main reason isn't one of not willing to invest the money to have them certified, because they must be certified by SFI under even more severe tests to be used for racing, they simply do not meet the DOT standards since they are not passive in nature and the buckle mechanism is not of an approved push to release type for passenger cars, nor are they able to be installed in a passenger vehicle in the harness manufacturer's approved mounting arrangement.
I can’t really add much to this. I simply have not invested the time to get up to speed on what the regs are. But it sure looks to me like the Feds require a lot of testing.

I’m out of time for today and I’m close to the 10k limit on post size. I’ll have to post this without my usual 3 of 4 proof reading passes and try to get back to the rest tomorrow. Hopefully I haven’t said too many foolish things. I’ve gotten feedback that indicates that some folks are interested in this stuff. If not, AX and I can take this off line.

Cal

 

Well I believe one of my Questions is this.
What if I've the Olde Style Lap Belts that is the "Billet & Buckle" type seatbelts?
what I believe Some refer to as the "Aircraft Style" seatbelts.
Are you stating that they are less effective/safe then the "Click" Style seatbelts?

Now I'm one of those Individuals that Absolutely SNUGS Down Tight his & my passengers seatbelts before I drive Anywhere & I absoluttely Do Not understand Why anyone wouldn't do so.

Now I've a set of 1958 Volvo 3-Point, None-retractable style seatbelts, which is the design the FoMoCo used when they offered their own 3-Point seatbelts from '58-'61 & I've been cogitating over installing them in my '58 M-100 to replace my Lap Belts.
Any reason why I should not?

 

Col,
The "olde style or aircraft" design belts I'm refering to that should NEVER be used had a large rectangular buckle with a side hinged face on one end and no metal parts on the other. The webbing strap was fed thru the buckle with the face held open and the end pulled to tighten. The buckle had spring loaded knurled rollers inside that gripped the webbing. I and the DOT recommend metal to metal buckles that release by pushing a button on the buckle.

Cal
OK!!!! We ARE on the same page! Your earlier posts made it read like you were advocating not using 3 point belts.
My youngest brother refuses to wear his seat belts (some misplaced protest against regulations) and uses some similar sounding arguments to justify it. We argue about it every time we are together, I tell him he is acting extremely irresponsible to himself and his family and setting a very poor example for his 3 teenage daughters. Thus my concern about the message presented.
The end of my post got chopped off when I was splitting it into 2 parts, the only other thing I think is important to discuss futher is the mounting and opperation of racing harnesses. There is a lot of confusion by laymen about them that I think needs clarification. Some of this confusion even carried over into the racing community until the death of Dale Earnhart, a death that could have easily been prevented!
I'll post a separate post in a few minutes.