Two more slides....










It seems one of the issues can be first seen as micropitting, which I had on my cam and you can see it in other examples I have from used cam images. Its why I've said if you do head gaskets, the front liters should be pulled and the HPOP so the cam lobes inspected with a borescope.

These were the micro-pits I had. It's the start of surface fatigue, and these cracks can propagate under the thin hardened lobe surface (image above), then the high oil film pressure can start to lift a larger surface into larger pits. You not only see the micro-pitting I had but how the relieved material then scored the lifter roller, which can then continue the process and fracture the roller. So does it end up being a lifter failure or lobe failure?

 

BigRed, flipping a cam in these motors is not an easy task. It's almost just waiting for the failure. To do it by the book, heads come off and crankshaft comes out.

And yet, these engines can go for a very long time, close to a million miles for some hotshotters, which would be low restarts and low idle time.

 

My post above was meant to be (although poorly worded) specifically in response to ToolMakeRob's question on injectors.

I agree about the lubricating film when considering the engine as a whole!

That brings up a completely different discussion about 10W30 oil (which is probably better left to a separate discussion I am sure!).

 

I knew that Mark, it wasn’t meant in contrast to you, it was meant as an addendum.

 

Wow awesome info guys!

Mark/Jack: I've been trying to search about temp rating of the Rotella T6 5W-40 fully synthetic that a lot of us run, when does it start breaking down? Or are you more concerned with all the other parts the oil is touching like rubber seals, plastic standpipes, etc?

Big red: Did you ever figure out why your water temps are so high? 208F unloaded seems very high. Are you running a stock radiator or aftermarket?

 

I have been rereading your thread and have a couple of question. 1 I read stated you have a newer radiator, what type and brand? 2 I am correct in reading that you had high temps like this before the upgrades? 3 When you flushed the AC condenser did you just use water or did you use a condenser fin cleaner product? 4 What size oil cooler did you get from BPD, standard, deep or tall?

 

All I have are my opinions really. I do know that Mark Kovalsky has stated in the past that our transmission fluid should be good to 300 *F without thermal degradation (although he certainly wasn't endorsing running that hot). I would think that a decent synthetic oil should be as well. That said, the fact that it can remain stable chemically at those temps doesn't mean that there won't be negative effects to running that hot. As Jack pointed out, the viscosity drops and film strength probably does as well. The point at which you begin to get into trouble hasn't been identified. Also part of the equation is how long do you expect the engine to last. 300k miles? 500k miles? etc. I feel certain that there isn't a huge risk of immediate catastrophic failure, but instead a risk of rather slow (but possibly accelerating with temperature past 250 or 275) degradation. I do think that many of the rubber components (seals, o-rings, etc) start accelerating in their degradation past 275 degrees. Cheap rubber, maybe at an even lower temperature.

Personally, I don't want to see my oil temp (EOT) exceed 220 *F. That should keep the oil below 270 even in the hottest parts of the engine.

Again - mainly just opinions .....

 

My concern is both film lubrication and degradation of non-metal parts, but I just dug deep into the cam/lifter issues. I've got about a dozen SAE studies cached, most I had to buy (discounted as I'm an SAE member).

There a good number of factors in the failures of those parts, stress during grinding, surface finish, depth of hardness, alloys, lubrication, Hertzian Contact Stress, etc. A number of the aftermarket cam companies make it a point to talk about they have a deeper hardness with their cams than OE, and I think that's a good point. In my cam video, I showed the surface finish and my home polishing based on some of the literature I've read. And I freaked on an OE cam that I got and saw disparities in the casting, so stopped right there.

I think oil quality and temperature are two important things that 6.0L owners need to focus on more. At the bottom line, our cams are more surface stressed than past 7.3L and we have an issue with our oil coolers clogging. Like Mark, 220ºF is about my limit I'd care to see the way we observe oil temp, and I've switched over to the Delvac oil that Mark has been using rather than the Rotella. I'd probably be fine with the Motorcraft oil. I think we commonly have compromised oil coolers and therefore higher temps that in the long term have consequences, and as owners that's about the most we can alter - the operating conditions. But it's not like every 6.0L is doomed to have cam/lifter failure.

Here's another graph I pulled out of old data. It's the extreme we all normally do not run in, but when doing research testing we would run accelerated test procedures, you don't have 5 to 10 years to work this all out. But another factor is startups. So what's the best oil for repetitive start and stop .... And while we see lobe/lifter failures on all lobes, failures at the rear lobes may be more to do with type of oil then excessive temp.

There is an engine heater on these motors for winter days .....






This includes one of my favorite quotes, I had it on the wall in my office. The "truths" we came to in our testing were always one step away from being shown false. We never should think we have the right answers. It is worse in forums, its just our opinions.

 

the new radiator was from amazon or rock auto, a non ford part, and not a fancy aftermarket. Yes I’ve had high temps for years . My water used to get higher and then I removed my front led light bar and removed my coolant filter and temps dropped about 10 degrees. The engine had already been flushed three times so I figured the coolant filter wouldn’t be worth the filtering anymore plus I’d was causing running in the new bpd oil cooler lines. The bpd oil cooler is the bigger “heavy duty model “ but I’m not sure the dimensions . I just used water on the condenser and I didn’t realize they made a special cleaner for it. I just sprayed the outside with the water hose .

 

One more question about your BPD kit, do you have the stock or remote oil flilter. As for the radiator I believe it was Jack that talked about the efficiency of the OEM radiator vs aftermarket. You might consider that. As for the coil cleaner, you will not believe the amount of stuff that that stuff can get out of the fins, even after flushing it with water.

Since you have separated the oil and water cooling systems it looks like you have 2 different issues. First we need to determine why your cooling system temp is so high. If you are willing you could try to remove the thermostat and drive around for a while to get up to operating temp. With the thermostat removed you should run it the 180's.

Now for the oil temp, I been thinking this sounds similar to a problem temp wise that someone else had a few months ago. Sorry don't remember the members name. But ultimately he was not getting flow thru the BPD cooler due to a plug in one of the lines.

 

I have the stock oil filter. I will try to make time to remove the thermostat tomorrow and report back.

 

Another question, have you every physical checked the temp of the oil cooler. I mean does it feel like it is getting hot?

Remember I think you dealing with 2 separate but related issues.

 

Yep, I think there was an obstruction in a line or fitting.

 

Interesting. What I've found in my limited experience is that with the 220F ECT setting of the stock cooling fan I can easily hit 230F oil temp on long pulls towing. I've seen as high as 235F. This is on a stock oil cooler than runs 8-10F over ECT during the 65mph test (typically 190ECT, 198-200 EOT). The temps can stay that high for 10-15 min as it's a long grade.

Definitely a case for the 7.3 fan clutch or finding a way to lower the fan engagement point on the Electronic fan...

 

I just tried to pull the thermostat as suggested but that is not possible. The thermostat has the built on housing nipple for the radiator hose. That was a waste of 30 min. Good thing its only 93 outside with no shade.

I'm going to put the thermostat and hose back on and refill the coolant. I bought some foam degreaser and sprayed it in the ac condenser and hosed it down twice.