I have been slowly collecting parts for a 460-400 engine swap. The donor truck is a 1977 F250 2WD with a 460. The engine will be going into a 1979 F150 4WD that has a 400 with a Borg Warner T18 4 speed. This 1979 F150 was purchased new by my father and is completely original so I know I am starting with a clean, unmodified truck.

I have read several internet posts about starter problems with 460 swaps, and of course there are different opinions on which flywheel works best. I have always been led to believe that the flywheel diameter relates to the number of teeth on the ring gear. Here is my question:

A Ford 400 appears to use a 180 tooth ring gear or a 180 tooth flex plate in all cases (correct me if I am wrong). Of course, I can't use the 400 externally balanced flywheel with my internally balanced 460--this is not news to anyone, so the search for a zero-balance flywheel begins for my 460 swap. I check the usual sites and quickly learn that the only option for a zero balance flywheel is either a 176 or 184 tooth count which I suspect is either slightly larger or slightly smaller in diameter than the 400's 180 tooth ring gear. If I recall correctly, the 400 and 460 actually do use the same starter according to the Ford part numbers--so that is a non-issue. I will be using the 400's cast iron bell housing, so the starter position will not change in any way. What does appear to change is the flywheel diameter if I use a 176 tooth or 184 tooth flywheel so I am concerned about having starter drive meshing problems like many people who have done this swap. Does anyone know of a 180 tooth flywheel for a 460? Am I missing something here? I think the ideal flywheel (ring gear) for a 460 swap should have 180 teeth.

 

I don't think there is a difference in flywheel/flex plate diameter based on the number of teeth. Where did you hear that, cause that's the first I have heard of it. The number of teeth on the flywheel must mesh with the number of teeth on the starter. Think of it as the pitch of a bolt thread. Say you have a 13 thread per inch bolt and you try to use a 20 thread per inch nut. Won't work, same concept. How many teeth you have on your starter?

 

Just plain old mechanical experience. Ford only made one starter drive for these trucks with 9 teeth only. Just like a bolt thread, ring gears have a tooth pitch as well and in order to mesh properly with a 9 tooth starter drive, more teeth would imply that the ring gear & flywheel are slightly bigger.

I ran across another post on a different site yesterday where the person posting stated that the actual diameter of the flywheel is contradictory to the number of teeth on the flywheel. The 176 tooth flywheel is actually slightly larger than the 180 tooth flywheel and the 184 tooth flywheel is actually slightly smaller than the 180 tooth flywheel. This defies logic to me. I just don't get it--if someone is going to manufacture a zero balance flywheel specifically for 460 engine swaps then why not use a 180 tooth ring gear that is the same as the original 460 flexplate and the 351M/400 flywheel?

 

Red, I'm not saying you are wrong. I simply am not sure and had never heard the tooth count to diameter ratio aspect before. I DO know that if you get the L and L clutch/flywheel kit you are good to use 90 percent of what you have. I did this exact swap a year ago or so and absolutely no issue with my starter (stock) and the flywheel from L and L. I know it is pricey, maybe that is your hesitation. Stock 351/400 bell housing works fine.

 

I have found a small number of other internet posts where people doing this swap have stumbled across the 180 tooth count and wondered the same thing--no one seems to have a good answer however. Quite a few people have had starter drive/ring gear meshing problems however.

I think you are right that the L&L kit is the best way to go. I was trying to do it all with Ford parts--all of which I have except for the flywheel. Yes, cost was a deterrent and it is time to step up. I am curious to know how many teeth are on the L&L ring gear--their website doesn't state that. I will contact them.

 

The tooth count on the flywheel depends on clutch size. You'll find out soon enough that the 400's bellhousing won't work with the 460 unless you buy L&L's special clutch. You'll save a lot of time and money buy using a stock 460 bellhousing and flywheel. Just my cents worth, take it or leave it.

 

Finally! I have found the elusive 180 tooth flywheel for the older 460's. JBG sells them and I suspect that L&L has the same one. Not to say that the 176 or 184 tooth flywheel sold by many places won't work, but the 180 tooth matches exactly what was originally used with the Ford 351M/400 bell housing and starter. The starter mounts to the bell housing so that sets the starter drive/ring gear clearance which was designed for the 180 tooth flywheel.

 

Sorry to resurrect an old post, I recently (by accident) installed a 180 tooth flywheel on my 1987 f250 with 460. I am having a heck of a time figuring out which starter to use.....the "manual transmission" starter does not send the gear out far enough, so I am going to try the automatic which protrudes farther....what nobody has been able to tell me is how many starter teeth I should have. I feel like this is a critical number! Hopefully Red Merc can share from his experience.....

 

Unfortunately, my limited experience stops with the dentside trucks. From what I have read, later in 1979 Ford went to an externally balanced 460--I suspect there are other differences too but I just don't know. Same story for the starters. Ford often changed the starter design for their trucks even if the engine application was the same. Looking through Ford parts manuals for starter part numbers for these trucks is downright confusing (leaf spring and driveshaft applications are even worse).

In 1987, if I recall correctly the 460 was factory available with a manual transmission so if you had the correct flywheel, then the manual starter should work. If you are using the counter balanced 180 tooth flywheel from a 351M or 400 (which I don't recommend) then it likely is sitting deeper in the bell housing than the correct 1987 460 flywheel would be. With the older 460's (like my 1977) the crankshaft flange sticks out further than the 351M/400. I suspect if you used the correct 1987 flywheel that it is designed to compensate for this offset. In my case that is why am going to use the JBG or L&L flywheel--it appears that they have solved the problem. I am just "putting this idea out there"--I don't know for sure. I can't say if the automatic starter will solve your problem, but it certainly sounds like it is worth trying. Hopefully someone else can chime in with a better answer for you. Please, let us know if you find a solution!

Red

 

Modern drive line can make you one of these conversion flywheels for you

 

I'd hope that after almost exactly a decade after the original post that he'd have figured something out.