77 F-150 Engine Swap
#17
05-22-2012 | 11:17 PM
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From: West Virginia
completely different engines. Alike only in displacement. Ford made the 351 windsor, which is very similar to the 302. They made the 351 modified, which is, as I mentioned, the "M" series of motors including the 400m and 460. And then just to further confuse things, they made the 351 cleveland, which shares common design with the 335. They are all different motors. The cleveland, I believe, was the last designed and supposedly designed using what they knew from building the other motors, but the windsor was the longest produced.
Some people think the cleveland has the best hp potential but it oils the main bearings last so it can be short lived. The windsor is suppsedly longer lasting but makes less power. People use to put cleveland heads on windsor motors, but it requires a bit of custom stuff like new pistons and etc.
Like I said, any of the motors can be built to produce whatever power you want. But for mud, my opinion is that there is no replacement for displacement. the big blocks weigh more but they make more power stock and for every modification you do, they reward you with big gains. There are stock 460 blocks with long tube headers, aftermarket weiland intakes, 800 cfm or larger carbs, ported and polished heads, and aftermarket cams that are making over 400 hp and a mountain of torque, with like $2k invested. You won't get that kind of power for that kind of money with any of the other ford engines. Not reliably anyway.
With most kind of wheeling, you can gear down and keep a smaller motor. Not true for mud though. Progress in mud depends on spinning the biggest paddles your motor will spin through the mud, fast enough to clean the tread out. Super swamper boggers won't do you a bit of good if you don't have the power to clean them.
My vote is for a 460. You can find running used ones for $300 or $400. make sure you hear it run though. Get the harness with it.
Some people think the cleveland has the best hp potential but it oils the main bearings last so it can be short lived. The windsor is suppsedly longer lasting but makes less power. People use to put cleveland heads on windsor motors, but it requires a bit of custom stuff like new pistons and etc.
Like I said, any of the motors can be built to produce whatever power you want. But for mud, my opinion is that there is no replacement for displacement. the big blocks weigh more but they make more power stock and for every modification you do, they reward you with big gains. There are stock 460 blocks with long tube headers, aftermarket weiland intakes, 800 cfm or larger carbs, ported and polished heads, and aftermarket cams that are making over 400 hp and a mountain of torque, with like $2k invested. You won't get that kind of power for that kind of money with any of the other ford engines. Not reliably anyway.
With most kind of wheeling, you can gear down and keep a smaller motor. Not true for mud though. Progress in mud depends on spinning the biggest paddles your motor will spin through the mud, fast enough to clean the tread out. Super swamper boggers won't do you a bit of good if you don't have the power to clean them.
My vote is for a 460. You can find running used ones for $300 or $400. make sure you hear it run though. Get the harness with it.
#18
05-22-2012 | 11:58 PM
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#19
05-23-2012 | 12:04 AM
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From: West Virginia
I haven't messed with any of the 351's enough to develop an opinion. Personally, I think its hard to have a vehicle thats really at home off road that you would still want to do a 50 mile commute in. I doubt you will be able to run a super aggressive tire with that kind of commute, so you won't need as much power to clear them. Something like a bfg mud terrain in a 33" size would be a good match for a stock v8. You could also do mods to the 300, some people have made a lot of power with them. Its gonna be peakier power though, higher up in the power band.
If I had to choose a 351 I'd personally pick the 351m, just because the 351m bell housing bolt pattern is the same as 460, the wiring harness is identical, and the mounts are really close with a simple bolt on adapter, so you can upgrade to a 460 more easily later on down the road. But without a high performance rebuild, I am not sure a 351m is gonna be a huge step up from a healthy 300. If i was in your shoes I'd probably wheel what I had for now if the 300 was healthy. If you need more power I'd consider lower gears. they will be useful later on when you add more power and bigger tires.
If I had to choose a 351 I'd personally pick the 351m, just because the 351m bell housing bolt pattern is the same as 460, the wiring harness is identical, and the mounts are really close with a simple bolt on adapter, so you can upgrade to a 460 more easily later on down the road. But without a high performance rebuild, I am not sure a 351m is gonna be a huge step up from a healthy 300. If i was in your shoes I'd probably wheel what I had for now if the 300 was healthy. If you need more power I'd consider lower gears. they will be useful later on when you add more power and bigger tires.
#20
05-23-2012 | 12:24 AM
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#21
05-23-2012 | 12:59 AM
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From: West Virginia
everything available for any engine is available for the 300.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...-opinions.html
Building Up Six-Cylinder Engine - Mustang & Fords Magazine
300 I-6 ford performance builds? • Speed Talk
Anyone build a Ford 300 cu. inline 6? - THE H.A.M.B.
I can't really say I'd recommend the turbo route if you are new to engine building, as it tends to be difficult to tune and on a carb'd engine can be very atmospheric dependant. But it only takes reading through a couple builds to be impress with the power...
Turbocharged 4.9L 300 build - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans
FORDSIX PERFORMANCE • View topic - turbo 300
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...-opinions.html
Building Up Six-Cylinder Engine - Mustang & Fords Magazine
300 I-6 ford performance builds? • Speed Talk
Anyone build a Ford 300 cu. inline 6? - THE H.A.M.B.
I can't really say I'd recommend the turbo route if you are new to engine building, as it tends to be difficult to tune and on a carb'd engine can be very atmospheric dependant. But it only takes reading through a couple builds to be impress with the power...
Turbocharged 4.9L 300 build - Ford F150 Forum - Community of Ford Truck Fans
FORDSIX PERFORMANCE • View topic - turbo 300
#22
05-23-2012 | 01:28 AM
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From: Sunshine Coast
Since you already have a 300 6 I would put in a 302 or a 351 windsor. Bolt up to the same bell housing as the 300. Saving money for goodies instead of wasting it on another tranny to go with a boat anchor motor. Personally I would go with the 351 windsor over a 302. I just swapped the 302 out of my truck and put in a 351 w. Way better. should have done it a long time ago. The 351 I put in is alot more built than the 302 was though.
There are good and bad years of all the motors. So saying one is a dog can be misleading. A 351 out of a 69 fairlane is alot different animal than a 351 out of an 85 ford van.
Do some homework on what makes some years better than others and educate yourself. There is some good things in some of the newer versions too. The 351 windsor was made into the 1990's, there must have been something good about it. Some of the newer ones have roller cams which can be a good start for a build.
There are good and bad years of all the motors. So saying one is a dog can be misleading. A 351 out of a 69 fairlane is alot different animal than a 351 out of an 85 ford van.
Do some homework on what makes some years better than others and educate yourself. There is some good things in some of the newer versions too. The 351 windsor was made into the 1990's, there must have been something good about it. Some of the newer ones have roller cams which can be a good start for a build.
#23
05-23-2012 | 02:05 AM
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From: By God West Virginia
302 really doesn't have enough "*****" to really push a 5500 lb 4x4 pickup around. It'll struggle on the highway because it's like trying to push a wet sail against the wind. Go with a 351w or even 400 because torque is what you're really gonna need when it's all said and done. Horsepower is just an equation involving torque and rpm. Get something with a low rpm torque band and you'll be a happy camper.
You might even net better mpg's with a 351w than you would with a 302. The 351 wouldn't need to work nearly as hard.
You might even net better mpg's with a 351w than you would with a 302. The 351 wouldn't need to work nearly as hard.
The main reason i say to stay away from the windsor, is because the aftermarket for it is a pain, and everything you buy for it, only works with it.
who told you a c4 won't hold up!? C4 is probably one of the most popular drag racing transmissions for streep/strip cars and you can order one (pretty reasonable in cost, imo) that have life time warranties. I've seen c4's behind 800 hp drag cars.
Behind Chevy's Powerglide... they are reasonable, and can be built nicely for decent prices...
I wouldn't worry about a C4 vs a C6. Just my opinion, but no real advantage to stepping up to a C6. You can build either of them as strong as you'll need em.
Behind Chevy's Powerglide... they are reasonable, and can be built nicely for decent prices...
I wouldn't worry about a C4 vs a C6. Just my opinion, but no real advantage to stepping up to a C6. You can build either of them as strong as you'll need em.
I've never had a C4 before, but I had a C6 behind a 300 i6 and it was a very good trans. I have, however, driven vehicles with carb'd and injected 351's and 302's. The 302 (efi or carb) was a dog... the 351w with EFI was peppy, and the 351m had a lot of torque but it took forever to get anywhere. No horse in the 351m, 302 had hp but no torque, and the 351w had the best of both worlds.
Edit: The C6 had 262k miles on it and it still grabbed like the truck was brand new. Pulled trailers and took the truck for the occasional flogging and it never slipped. But, it was a 300 i6. Truck was an 87 F-150 4x4 with a 3" leveling kit, 31's, standard cab, long bed.
Edit: The C6 had 262k miles on it and it still grabbed like the truck was brand new. Pulled trailers and took the truck for the occasional flogging and it never slipped. But, it was a 300 i6. Truck was an 87 F-150 4x4 with a 3" leveling kit, 31's, standard cab, long bed.
As far as the 351-w vs. 302, see my reply to your other post
351w is just a 302 with a taller deck height and some other changes. So basically the different is about 49ci's... not a huge difference in power potential. Its known more for being durable than for its horsepower potential.
The 351m shares most common characteristics with the 400m and 460. Also not really well known for producing outrageous power.
Most enthusiasts consider the 5.0 (302) to be the "350 chevy" of the ford world, which is to say, the compromise choice that is cheap and easy to build.
For a given amount of money, just about everyone agrees the cheapest way to get decent power is with a big block, but if its a truck thats gonna be driven on the street, the 460 will just suck down fuel. forum members get 6, 8, maybe 10 mpg on the high end. On the other hand, nothing is gonna spin 35" or larger mud tires like a big block. Just about any of the above engines can be built to 400 hp or more, but the 460 can make nearly that hp at 2000 rpm, just off the torque converter, which is where you want it for off road or towing. For my money I went with the 460, I actually junked two complete 351m engines, had zero interest in them even after listing the pair for sale for $100 for 3 months.
If you go with a big block I'd go with the C6 that will be bolted to it. If you stay with any of the small blocks, and your C4 is still nice and healthy, there is really no reason to swap it out unless the engine comes bolted to another tranny thats in good shape.
I'm a big fan of running things until they break. If you spend enough time on internet forums people will convince you that you should spend all this money to bulletproof a truck before it ever hits a trail or a mud pit. I think its more fun just to wheel and when something breaks, you fix it. If it breaks more than once, maybe upgrade then. But its all just bench racing till then.
The 351m shares most common characteristics with the 400m and 460. Also not really well known for producing outrageous power.
Most enthusiasts consider the 5.0 (302) to be the "350 chevy" of the ford world, which is to say, the compromise choice that is cheap and easy to build.
For a given amount of money, just about everyone agrees the cheapest way to get decent power is with a big block, but if its a truck thats gonna be driven on the street, the 460 will just suck down fuel. forum members get 6, 8, maybe 10 mpg on the high end. On the other hand, nothing is gonna spin 35" or larger mud tires like a big block. Just about any of the above engines can be built to 400 hp or more, but the 460 can make nearly that hp at 2000 rpm, just off the torque converter, which is where you want it for off road or towing. For my money I went with the 460, I actually junked two complete 351m engines, had zero interest in them even after listing the pair for sale for $100 for 3 months.
If you go with a big block I'd go with the C6 that will be bolted to it. If you stay with any of the small blocks, and your C4 is still nice and healthy, there is really no reason to swap it out unless the engine comes bolted to another tranny thats in good shape.
I'm a big fan of running things until they break. If you spend enough time on internet forums people will convince you that you should spend all this money to bulletproof a truck before it ever hits a trail or a mud pit. I think its more fun just to wheel and when something breaks, you fix it. If it breaks more than once, maybe upgrade then. But its all just bench racing till then.
Again true about the 351-m, and 400 being similar (don't personally know about the 460)
302, is the 350 of Ford lol, simply because of the price of parts, while still almost double that of chevy stuff, it lasts longer, and performs better lol...
I don't recomend a bigblock for something you plan to drive, even on a semi regular basis (horrid fuel mileage)
completely different engines. Alike only in displacement. Ford made the 351 windsor, which is very similar to the 302. They made the 351 modified, which is, as I mentioned, the "M" series of motors including the 400m and 460. And then just to further confuse things, they made the 351 cleveland, which shares common design with the 335. They are all different motors. The cleveland, I believe, was the last designed and supposedly designed using what they knew from building the other motors, but the windsor was the longest produced.
Some people think the cleveland has the best hp potential but it oils the main bearings last so it can be short lived. The windsor is suppsedly longer lasting but makes less power. People use to put cleveland heads on windsor motors, but it requires a bit of custom stuff like new pistons and etc.
Like I said, any of the motors can be built to produce whatever power you want. But for mud, my opinion is that there is no replacement for displacement. the big blocks weigh more but they make more power stock and for every modification you do, they reward you with big gains. There are stock 460 blocks with long tube headers, aftermarket weiland intakes, 800 cfm or larger carbs, ported and polished heads, and aftermarket cams that are making over 400 hp and a mountain of torque, with like $2k invested. You won't get that kind of power for that kind of money with any of the other ford engines. Not reliably anyway.
With most kind of wheeling, you can gear down and keep a smaller motor. Not true for mud though. Progress in mud depends on spinning the biggest paddles your motor will spin through the mud, fast enough to clean the tread out. Super swamper boggers won't do you a bit of good if you don't have the power to clean them.
My vote is for a 460. You can find running used ones for $300 or $400. make sure you hear it run though. Get the harness with it.
Some people think the cleveland has the best hp potential but it oils the main bearings last so it can be short lived. The windsor is suppsedly longer lasting but makes less power. People use to put cleveland heads on windsor motors, but it requires a bit of custom stuff like new pistons and etc.
Like I said, any of the motors can be built to produce whatever power you want. But for mud, my opinion is that there is no replacement for displacement. the big blocks weigh more but they make more power stock and for every modification you do, they reward you with big gains. There are stock 460 blocks with long tube headers, aftermarket weiland intakes, 800 cfm or larger carbs, ported and polished heads, and aftermarket cams that are making over 400 hp and a mountain of torque, with like $2k invested. You won't get that kind of power for that kind of money with any of the other ford engines. Not reliably anyway.
With most kind of wheeling, you can gear down and keep a smaller motor. Not true for mud though. Progress in mud depends on spinning the biggest paddles your motor will spin through the mud, fast enough to clean the tread out. Super swamper boggers won't do you a bit of good if you don't have the power to clean them.
My vote is for a 460. You can find running used ones for $300 or $400. make sure you hear it run though. Get the harness with it.
Specificly it is the 2v Cleavland heads that are put on the windsor, and there is a signifgant amount of fab work involved in building one of the famed CLEAVOR's. But considering most of them produce 500+ HP when done... I kind of think it's worthwhile...
Your comment about engine building is somewhat flawed, but you mostly have the right idea, so i'll leave it be...
In mud, you can also use the skiniest tires you can find at high rpm's to cut through the mud, and bite into the firmer ground underneath... (you still need a good set of tread, and it has to clean out though...) why do you think so many people run tractor tires?
Since you already have a 300 6 I would put in a 302 or a 351 windsor. Bolt up to the same bell housing as the 300. Saving money for goodies instead of wasting it on another tranny to go with a boat anchor motor. Personally I would go with the 351 windsor over a 302. I just swapped the 302 out of my truck and put in a 351 w. Way better. should have done it a long time ago. The 351 I put in is alot more built than the 302 was though.
There are good and bad years of all the motors. So saying one is a dog can be misleading. A 351 out of a 69 fairlane is alot different animal than a 351 out of an 85 ford van.
Do some homework on what makes some years better than others and educate yourself. There is some good things in some of the newer versions too. The 351 windsor was made into the 1990's, there must have been something good about it. Some of the newer ones have roller cams which can be a good start for a build.
There are good and bad years of all the motors. So saying one is a dog can be misleading. A 351 out of a 69 fairlane is alot different animal than a 351 out of an 85 ford van.
Do some homework on what makes some years better than others and educate yourself. There is some good things in some of the newer versions too. The 351 windsor was made into the 1990's, there must have been something good about it. Some of the newer ones have roller cams which can be a good start for a build.
Basically if it's a late 70's early 80's motor avoid it (enviromentalist hippie sumbitches hurt the power to help the environment...), and go for late 60's early 70's, or learn about the newer stuff, and pick through it.
#24
05-23-2012 | 05:34 PM
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From: Alston, MI
I was just saying the 351w will give him the power he wants, which was mentioned in the original post. He wanted some good mudding power with decent mileage. Every 302 felt like a dog, had an efi with 3.55 gearing and it was pitiful. Had a carbed one with 4.11 gearing and it also felt like a total dog. Drove a 91 f350 4x4 crew cab long bed with a 351w and a 5 speed and it was surprisingly powerful (I think it had 3.73's in it).
And I just remembered that not every 302 I've driven was a dog. I drove a 94 f150 4x4 standard cab flareside with a 5 speed and it was decently peppy. But, that truck was MUCH lighter than the poster's truck (totally stripped down truck. Only had PS and PB).
If you want a 302, a manual trans will help out a lot. But, you'll only maybe save 1 or 2 mpg.
And I just remembered that not every 302 I've driven was a dog. I drove a 94 f150 4x4 standard cab flareside with a 5 speed and it was decently peppy. But, that truck was MUCH lighter than the poster's truck (totally stripped down truck. Only had PS and PB).
If you want a 302, a manual trans will help out a lot. But, you'll only maybe save 1 or 2 mpg.
#25
05-23-2012 | 07:15 PM
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From: Virginia
Thing got 16 MPG and could smoke the 31s off the rims 
#26
05-23-2012 | 07:16 PM
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