It is important to sort out the 6.7s used in 350s and the ones used in 450/550s other applications where the metrics may be quite different.


The big milestones coming up:

B10 (mileage where 10% of the fleet experience a major breakdown)

B50 (ditto for 50%).

My thumb nail is we are looking at B10 life for F350s around 175k miles and a B50 around 250 to 300k miles.

 

You may want to clarify that statement. Paul didn't say 1 out of 1000 repair rate. He said this:

I will say that there have been very few engine failures in total. Last I checked the number was less than 1 repair per thousand vehicles, which is quite excellent when bench-marked.

Which sounds like he is saying 1 out of 1000 failures....which I take to mean significant or catastrophic failure and not simple repair. Maybe Paul can clarify?.

 

I considered that when I first looked at the post. He said 1 repair...per 1000 vehicles. I guess he will clear this up when he returns with that additional data.

Regards

 

Several common definitions:

x unit per 1,000 requiring repair.

That is a raw measure of repair frequency that is good for initial quality assessments --- before mileage / hours / actual use accumulates in the field.

Normally, engines are rated in terms of MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure), and also MTTR (Mean Time to Repair).

A raw measure of repair frequency (that exclude adjustments, normal maintenance, etc.) is good to gauge initial quality.

e.g. JD Powers does an initial quality survey that ask new buyers of cars and trucks to report on the number of issues / problems in the first few months / year of ownership.

I would take the number cited by Paul to be major problems, rather than relatively minor ones (e.g. someone forgot to connect a sensor or it came loose).

What is a major issue?

For B50 / B10 life, it is so defined here:


Diesel Truck Maintenance - Diesel Engines - Diesel Power Magazine


Notes:

B50 life of 300,000 miles implies a lot of samples that do not make it to that point so as to even out the ones that go way beyond.

This is a number for major repairs --- that exclude ones that have a bad sensor, wiring faults, etc.

 

Rick,
What's the necessary milestones? Although this engine seems to be doing pretty good so far, it hasn't been out a year yet.

From my point of view the short term reliability appears to be great, but who knows about the long term will yield. Only time will tell.

 

Troy,

I read somewhere, and I am not sure about the exact numbers, that it took Dodge many years to sell 300,000 Cummins powered trucks. Ford will likely sell 300,000 6.7's before the 2012's are introduced. There is comfort in numbers. The test pool will be as large as Dodges entire fleet by the end of the year. While the 150000 mile trucks are not here yet, the lower mileage trucks are not showing any propensity for failure. Modern engineering and manufacturing has given us remarkably sturdy major engine components. Let's look at the much maligned 6.0. Does the engine have problems? Yes, but they are mostly all bolt on components to the engine long block. Oil coolers and EGR coolers are the largest contributors to 6.0 issues. There is no recurring history of major engine component failures with the 6.0. The block, heads, pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft and camshafts have been fairly bullet proof. Why would we expect different results from the 6.7.

Ford tested the 6.7 for over 10 million miles before it was released to the public. Long term testing has continued for almost a year since model introduction. I have seen no reports of issues anywhere. The beta testers that have come forward are not having issues.

By this time in the 6.0 and 6.4 introductions, comparably the world was falling apart.

I will admit that there is a certain amount of faith involved with my confidence. But that faith comes from looking at the owner success so far and the long term Ford testing to date. I may be nuts but I do not think so.

There certainly are some people who do though...

Regards

 

My big worry for long term durability are:

- electrical wiring / connectors

- sensors / actuators

- DPF / SCR / DOC issues

That is where the problem is likely to come from... not the basic block / etc.


Rick...

Wait about 2 or 3 model years, and see how part numbers got replaced with new and improved ones... and how the casting changed (block) and you will retrospectively get a sense of what they didn't figure out until this year.

My guess: you are going to see the block selectively strengthened so it can take 1000 ft lbs output and 450 hp.

Expect to see a new tire speced for next (2012) model year.

I also expect the DEF system to be major modded --- by 2013 with a fill in a different location (and harder to screw up than the current one).

Plus lots and lots of software updates....

 

Rick...

Sometimes, when lighting strikes twice in the same place, and the victim LOUDLY pronounce their innocence...

Then there is the inconvenient fact that the two vehicles had drastically different mileages (and presumably failed around the same time... with the same operator(s)...

The lowest common denominator is....

Grin.

 

Total collective miles on all the engines doesn't always indicate problems on the horizon.

For example the 6.0 oil cooler plugging and now the 6.4 is showing signs of rocker arm failures which in both cases took long term aging for these problems to show their ugly head. Obviously these problems were not identified in lab testing and just needed real world use and real world aging for these problems to develop.

I commend you on your enthusiasm and optimisic view, but long term reliablity cant' always be simulated in a lab or a virtual world.

Ford may have hit the bulleye with this engine as is, but the next MY engine will give clues to how close Ford got.

 

I would not dispute any of that. There is a certain amount of learning that happened from the previous mistakes. This is why there have been no issues to date. We have no idea how many miles the first run Ford test mules have run, but I bet their fleet has turned some miles...some serious miles.

 

The issue is not just age needed to show up problems.

In the case of the 6.0 / 6.4, they both got caught in the transition to ULSD and the biofuel mania.

Much of the issues / problems were caused by some unknown combination of issues related to ULSD, excessively low cetane / poor fuel quality and the biofuel mania, all of which reached their peak around the 2008 oil bubble.

We know very little as to how old engines function as the old, caked on deposits were freshly coated with ULSD / bio diesel deposits.

While no one is officially talking --- I have seen plenty of evidence that people were using unapproved / homebrew / dubious fuels (bio mostly) in their vehicles in the last decade.

More than one story I have come across show a major issue that is combustion related turning up almost immediately after a tank of biofuel (even those within spec) was filled and used.

In all fairness, no manufacturer can be expected to fully anticipate, plan, design and build for conditions out there that are changing far beyond their reasonable expectations at the time of manufacturing.

Who would think that B100 would go from a cult thing pre 2000 to a real phenomena by 2007, when many diesel operators were running it with their homebrew on late model 6.0s and then 6.4s despite the fact that not only is the engine not designed for it, biofuels are known to cause severe problems with lubricants which were not addressed seriously until PC10 (CJ-4).

The real serious issues with biofuels and lubricants remain unsolved and await PC11 (aka CK-4) which is now stalled.

My point is --- it is not just what makers find out in the field --- but the field is itself changing fast.

Biofuels is one that almost certainly caught IH/Ford by surprise in the early mid 2000s.

How much was the 6.0 issues related to that?

My short list: problems related to coking, combustion, operating temp, gelling, "making oil", lubricity as engine oil is diluted.... that is to start.


If you monitor the 6.0 / 6.4 forums, notice how the issue of clogged EGR valves have quietly faded?

That in itself suggest that something that caused the build quietly gone away.... and once cleaned.. EGR valves have not clogged again.

That reads fuel quality.. circa a few years back...

What totally unexpected problems await the 6.7?

Right up on my list: people converting to natural gas in a few years.

 

Does someone know if there is any rhyme, rhythm to the exhaust valve / glow plug tip / breaks that is destroying the engine?

Is it in particular cylinders? Banks (left or right)?

esp. Is it concentrated in the left bank (used for regen)?

 

Primary suspect is someone dropped the glow plug while installing it at the plant.

 

do you have a sorce for that? I would love to read it.
Ive drop a few glowplugs and have yet to see one damaged from it.

 

from what I am hearing about the ones that I know of it looks like cyclinder #2 and #8 iirc anyway.